VACCINES

[Pat]

Discussion, references, inquiries, etc.

[Meredeth]

One of the reasons these viruses mutate is BECAUSE of the vaccines. I was a school teacher for years. And every year I saw at least one (usually more) chick pox vaccinated child get mild cases of cp over and over. Also it is interesting to note that with the mass distribution of the cp vax there has been a significant increase in shingles resulting in death of our elderly population.

For us, we have selectively vaccinated. Some of them I don't so much have a problem with-just a problem giving them to my babies before their immune systems are completely developed. We just did a lot of reading and then picked and chose the ones that we felt the benefit of the shot outweighed the risk.

[Pat]

:SOAPBOX WARNING:

Here is a copy of an old post of mine about the difficulty we had about this decision. Our findings were that the most dangerous diseases had the shortest vaccine history. And there was no way we could inject new vaccines into our son before his immune system was more fully developed, (after age 2). The "safest" vaccines were for diseases for which there were so few incidents as to not be worried. Another consideration is the exemption laws and your potential schooling choices. I would never subject our son to multiple, multi-dose vaccines all at once to enter school.

The most important thing, imo, if one does choose vaccines is to insist on single disease vaccines and only one disease exposure at a time. (These must be special ordered, generally. And may not be covered by insurance.) And insist on a minimum of 4 weeks after any viral/infections illness before any vaccination; and a minimum of 4 weeks between each vaccine disease exposure.

Quote:
You aren't going to find THE "Right" answer. There is only what you feel is right for you and your family. People believe in different things in which to trust, or to keep them from fear. The journey to discovering what motivates you, and upon what premises you make your decisions is an arduous one in parenting. Personally, I have 18 years of critical care experience, and I understand how *unscientific* medical practice and medical science is. True medical care is an Art, as much, if not more than a Science. I have seen so, so many "best practice protocols" subsequently disavowed as having some (previously unknown) danger, AFTER patients have utilized (and suffered from) them. We, the medical people, did *to* people, with all good intentions and full faith in the system of Science. However, science really is quite blind in its research; you can only learn what you are seeking to find. The myopia of separating the mind/body/spirit is a huge aspect of the limitations of medicine.

And we have the System of Medicine, embodied by the (fiscal) monopoly of the AMA. I can only say that if you go to a surgeon, he will use the tools available to him: surgery. If you go to a internist, he will use the tools available to him: pills. If you go to a psychologist: a DSM-whatever diagnosis is utilized. They can only utilize what they know and what they are taught. Unfortunately, what is *taught* isn't necessarily current with what is known outside of their specialty. There is such a specialization in *parts* of the body that there is no *whole* patient. This isn't a system of *health*, but of illness, disease, and deficit focused care.

So, we, medical people, have developed means of dealing with discrete illness and disease, rather than focusing on maximizing the *health* of the whole person. Because we can, because there is a market for 'fixing' a problem, because it is quicker, easier, because if it doesn't work the patient just comes back, and comes back, and comes back. A system that self-perpetuates is not working to eliminate the need for itself.

In regards to vaccines, we, medical people, knew that people were *getting* polio FROM the vaccine for 40 some years, before we changed to an injectable form which cost a slight bit more. For how many years have we, the medical system, injected a known toxin, mercury, into young children in ever increasing frequency and amounts? Oh, they did just remove thimerosal after the incidence of autism has increased from 1:10,000 to 1:500 in just 10 years, highly correlated with vaccine compliance by state. http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/38784.php
http://www.mothering.com/guest_editors/quiet_place/125.html
http://www.statssheet.com/articles/article18559.html
http://www.nvic.org/Diseases/autismsp.htm

And giving hepatitis vaccine to ALL newborns! Newborns who can't get hepatitis unless they share blood with another infected person? These types of practices, mandated by the CDC are not building credibility that the interest of the *whole* INDIVIDUAL matters. Perhaps there is some "herd immunity" benefit that the CDC is championing. But at the expense of *individuals* with polio, deaths due to hepatitis vaccine, and high mercury contamination, etc.?

So, I have a problem with the System of Vaccinations. Additionally, I am anal; and we actually did the calculations for each disease against which there is a vaccine. We calculated the risks, taking into consideration the risk of contracting the disease within the US population of 300 million, and the occurrence in our young son's age range, and then extrapolating the likelihood, by percentage, of developing the most severe complications (encephalitis, meningitis and death). And the risks were so, so minimal that the uncertain, but untrusted risk of the vaccines was outweighed by the facts of the disease's relative "danger". Basically, it was a crap shoot for the odds of vaccination vs. living with an occasional disease exposure.

But, we maximize our health by many means. And we avoid compromising our health within the health care system. And we are knowledgeable about homeopathic, natural and alternative health care, and we trust our bodies to be better able to handle the assault of naturally occurring disease, more than we trust our bodies to handle the assault on the immune system of artificially injecting multiple diseases at one time, repeatedly, prior to the full development of the immune system. A whole 'nuther variable is the assault and unknown damage on the developing immune system by the vaccination program before age 2. Science doesn't quite understand all this gray matter (brain and immune system) yet.

The most damning source of information was the CDC's own site. (And their "Pink Book") Their documentation of the actual incidence of disease and the incidence of complications is minuscule for many of the diseases, despite the proclamations of all the dangers of the disease. And the product insert for each vaccine which lists the ingredients, contraindications, warnings, side effects, etc. was informative (and disconcerting). And for those diseases with the most dangerous incidence, the vaccines are very *NEW* and under tested; and the system has failed too many individuals to place our son's life in the manufacturer's 'post marketing research' trial. (The actual number of children upon whom they test the vaccines prior to mass vaccination is very small, obviously.) But the manufacturer extrapolates "safety" based upon a short duration of follow up, of only healthy children in the trial. And complications and reactions are notoriously under/unreported. And, and, and....

Yes, you can contract the disease *from* some of the vaccines.

And you can contract the disease despite some (all/any) of the vaccines.

There is no known "immunity" titre for the diseases for all people. That is why they give so many, "just in case" the first several doses were ineffective for your body. But, fewer of the doses might have been "enough" for some people. Or the many doses may still be ineffective at providing protection. We just don't know, because there is little scientific research on large numbers of people, over a long duration before marketing (new) vaccines. Most outbreaks of disease are in vaccinated people! The adult dose and the children's dose of most vaccines are the same because they don't know how much is the amount needed.

There are risks to not vaccinating. There are risks to vaccinating. There are no sure bets in life. But, you make your best guess based upon what you choose to believe in.

What is the saying "Don't try to fool Mother Nature".


Pat

[Pat]

One last post and I'll jump off this soap box and do the dishes. LOL

The sheer quantity of disease exposure was astounding to me. About 28 injections and 42 different disease exposures, most before age 2 when the immune system is immature and developing.
http://www.babycenter.com/immunization-scheduler?_requestid=130844
Recommended Date Baby's Age Vaccine
Birth to 2 months Hepatitis B
1 to 4 months Hepatitis B
2 months DTaP
2 months Hib
2 months Polio (IPV)
2 months Pneumococcal (PCV)
2 months Rotavirus**
4 months DTaP
4 months Hib
4 months Polio (IPV)
4 months Pneumococcal (PCV)
4 months Rotavirus**
6 months DTaP
6 months Hib
6 months Pneumococcal (PCV)
6 months Rotavirus**
6 to 18 months Hepatitis B
6 to 18 months Polio (IPV)
12 to 15 months Hib
12 to 15 months MMR
12 to 15 months Pneumococcal (PCV)
12 to 18 months Varicella
12 to 23 months Hepatitis A
15 to 18 months DTaP
2 to 6 years Hepatitis A
4 to 6 years DTaP
4 to 6 years Polio (IPV)
4 to 6 years MMR
11 to 12 years Tdap (DTap booster)
11 to 12 years Meningococcal (MCV4)
11 to 12 years HPV (girls only)***

Issues to consider for an "Informed Consent":
http://www.naturalfamilyonline.com/go/index.php/118/how-why-to-rese...\


Pat, (Recovering flu clinic organizer, lol, kinda like a "recovering smoker". What is the saying 'When you know differently, you do differently.') I no longer *believe* in the "science" of vaccines.

***"Question everything. Question especially what you believe in, because it's probably something you have been TAUGHT."***

All is well.

[Jennie Eggleston]

The best book I ever read on this topic is "Parent's Concise Guide to Childhood Vaccines" by Lauren Feder. She is a pediatrician in CA, and has a website also www.drfeder.com. She also wrote "Natural Baby and Childcare" which also a great read. If only Dr. Feder had a practice in Charlotte....

[Laura Anne Farley]

So... Is the general issue that the vaccines are unnecessary or that they can cause diseases and other complication? What vaccines are good to give?

[Pat]

I believe every family makes their decisions based on different things. So, I don't believe there is one answer to your question.

I believe a vaccine could help folks who are traveling or caring for people with a high incidence of contagious and dangerous diseases, where the risks of the unknown variables inherent in vaccines are significantly outweighed by the risks of the disease. (Like working in a smallpox hospital.)

My husband traveled to parts of rural India without being vaccinated, for instance. But, he wasn't living in areas where diseases were highly concentrated.

Following holistic practices and a traditional diet, probably enhances the immune system, based upon my beliefs, understanding, and research. There are health practices which probably damage the immune system, based upon my beliefs, understanding, and research. But, mostly folks just choose where they put their faith.

Pat

[Gina Grothoff]

Check out the archives of Charlotte Talks from Today's show- wfae.org
http://www.wfae.org/wfae/18_92_0.cfm
David Kirby was on the air speaking about research he has done on vaccines. I have done reading and attending many events held by PAVE and I learned new things listening to him.
I think he will be speaking Sat afternoon. Check the schuedule of speakers at the link below.

They also had others on Charlotte Talks who will be speaking at this weekend's- Saving Our Kids, Healing Our Planet Event being held at the Charlotte Convention Center.
http://www.sokhop.com/
Kids are free- register online and save money over the price at the door.

I will be going Sat afternoon and Sunday I will be there manning a booth for Bellas and LLL.
Breastfeeding is the baby's first immunization and the best form of immunization!
www.llli.org
Congrats Maureen on your fist baby! I am due with my third baby in early Jan.
I went to Dr. Jack Anderson for my daughter 2nd child who I choose to delay vaccines (and he saw my older son as well who was fully vaciniated until age 2)- , and mydd has not yet had any (she is 6). He did start pressuring me about vaccines when she was about 2 or 3 and so I moved to a family doctor at that point. (MD but does not have hospital privileges- placenta brain- can't remember his name!)
Now we go to a Naturopathic Doctor- not covered by insurance- but I love naturopathic medical philosophy- and he also practices classical homeopathy.
For this baby, I will likely take him/her to Dr. Kannelos or to his nurse practitioner who I saw myself at the start of my pregnancy-I liked her- they are cool with my home birth plans- just to have an MD with hospital privileges- should there be a need for that- and to be seen as an infant- but will then switch that child over to Dr. Smith at Carolina's Natural Health- located in Matthews- with rest of my family. (I see Dr. Michelle Dillon at same practice- also a naturopahic doctor who specializes in classical homeopathy- I wanted a woman doc:)

Also check out Dr. Bob Sears Book
http://www.askdrsears.com/thevaccinebook/
Although the book is more about delaying vaccines and selectively choosing them, I know that he himself either does not vaccinate his own children or really is ok with no vaccines. He wrote the book the way he did because he felt there were no middle of the road books out there. (which was true- for the main stream we need to begin with a middle ground as a start- but the more I hear, the more I wonder why we continue with this 1950s technology.
I heard him speak at a LLL conference about a year ago right after the book came out.

He is son to Dr. Bill Sears- Attachment Parenting Pediatrician and author of many books along with his wife- nurse. (in case you had not heard of him:)

Joy
Gina

[Joette]

We see Dr. Anderson as well and I do feel he is very pro-vaccine. He still sees my children even though we have decided to stop vaccinating, which other doctors will not even do. However, what bothers me most is he has tried to manually retract both of my boys intact penises on several occasions. I am hoping to find a doctor with more knowledge on holistic issues, like the proper care of the intact penis. I have our first appointment with Dr. Kanelos tomorrow. We actually don't go to allopathic doctors very often. The last couple of years we have only been there for well visits. Fortunately my kids have been pretty healthy and if they have needed care we have sought out alternative medicine. I do still want to keep a relationship with a family doctor/pediatrician. So if we needed one I have already done the research on one I am comfortable with.

[Pat]

OT: We've seen Dr. Kanelos with our son two or three times, and he has never been into examining his penis intently. And certainly didn't do any manipulation of it. We haven't been in over a year and a half. We plan to see him every couple of years, just to maintain familiarity for our son with the office. But, Dr. Kanelos is very respectful about (not) touching a child if they aren't comfortable.

There is no reason for them to be messing with their penis, imo. I'm shocked that a doctor would try to retract a young child's penis, that is no uninformed!

Pat

[Maureen]

Janice, I borrowed the book you recommended from the library, and the Appendix 1 General Safety Guidelines and Proposed Schedule of Vaccinations is going to be very helpful to me. Thanks for the suggestion.

[Pat]

Found this link listing the incidence of different diseases in the US, by year: http://www.who.int/vaccines/globalsummary/immunization/timeseries/T...


Pat