Introduction

[Joy Kennedy]

My name is Joy and I have been living in Charlotte for the last 8 years. My husband and I just had our first baby, Henry, May 7, 2008. We took the Bradley class and I labored without drugs for 30 hours and then when I was about to push my midwife realized I was breeched. So we had an emergency c-section. We breastfeed, I was very fortunate to not have any problems with breastfeeding and I love it! We cloth diaper, prefolds and fleece wraps. And we co-sleep (which I also love). I ate all organic food while pregnant, and continue while breastfeeding. I would love to learn to garden, we started composting and plan to start a vegetable garden in the spring. We do not buy any processed foods (with the exception of cereal) and we do not buy anything in cans or plastic. I strongly believe that the majority of the population is way off track regarding their health and eating habits and I try my best to educate myself to prevent my family from making the same mistakes. I try to practice proper food combinations and try to eat 70percent raw. I am a vegan and my husband occasionally eats meat and can not say not to ice cream! Also, we do not use any conventional cleaners, just Charlie's soap, vinegar and baking soda.

Henry is now 5 months! he is 21 pounds and 29 inches--a giant! When he was 5 weeks we took him to his Dr. (Dr. Talley) because he had a fever. He had 'dirty urine' and we had to admit him to the hospital for a week. He was on two different antibiotics for a urinary tract infection. After an ultra-sound and VCUG (a process where they use a catheter and dye to watch where the urine is going from the kidney) they diagnosed him with vesicoureteral reflux, grade 5 (the worst). He is on preventative antibiotics (which I hate and I give him probiotics)) and if it does not improve by the time he is 1 he will have surgery. We haven't had any problems and he is growing so well. I do hate the antibiotics and wonder if they really help and if his dr.'s consider the effect they have on his other organs. Other than the reflux he is the perfect little boy!

I would love to learn more about cooking, soaking grains, and fermenting vegetables. I hope to win the lottery so I can buy land and become self sustainable!
Here is a link to my Flickr page if you have time you are welcome to check it out! I have pictures starting from when I was pregnant, from labor to now! http://www.flickr.com/photos/26621682@N06/
Thanks for reading my super long intro. I look forward to meeting you all!
joy

[Anna]

Welcome Joy!! It was wonderful to read about your family.

I wanted to write also because my dd had reflux as a baby and only has one kidney. They wanted to do the prophylactic antibiotics too. We chose not to do that. The only way they let me get away with it was to bring in month urine samples and to bring her in IMMEDIATELY if there was an "unexplained" fever. That course worked well for us and she's about to turn 11 and doing really well. (She lost her kidney from medical interventions after her birth, when she was very ill from a hospital contracted infection - long story!) Anyway, I just wanted to put that out there. She did not have Grade V but my reading on the prophylactic antibiotics, at the time, convinced me it wasn't a route I was comfortable with. I can certainly understand why people would choose it though, and remember the pressure from the doctors well!!

Again welcome to the group. I hope we get to meet sometime.

~Anna

[Pat]

Welcome! Glad you joined us. I want to send you directly to the "Tradional Foods" forum at Mothering.com to learn about whole food probiotics and fermenting!! I am learning so much there. I'm kefir crazy, they all will tell you, lol. http://www.mothering.com/discussions/forumdisplay.php?f=365

I have a special interest in kidney reflux issues as Anna's daughter had issues. We've both done a lot of research about it. I just called her and she'll chime in also. But, I can't keep myself from posting some research about the benefits of probiotics for reflux, over antibiotics prophalactically, especially for someone with such a natural and organic diet.

Probiotics: In conclusion, probiotics prophylaxis was as effective as antibiotic prophylaxis in children with persistent primary VUR. http://www.springerlink.com/content/1741p5k22284x265/

Homeopathics: http://www.truestarhealth.com/Notes/2262002.html

You might check out these threads:
http://www.mothering.com/discussions/showthread.php?p=11703950&...
http://www.mothering.com/discussions/showthread.php?p=11704452&...
http://www.mothering.com/discussions/showthread.php?p=11889594&...
http://www.mothering.com/discussions/showthread.php?p=11703332&...
http://www.mothering.com/discussions/showthread.php?p=11702644&...
http://www.mothering.com/discussions/showthread.php?p=10166865&...
http://www.mothering.com/discussions/showthread.php?p=4044916&h...

Also, consider seeing a professional classical homeopath to optimize his vital force and immune system. We see Naomi Zeskind, locally.

Especially since you had antibiotics with the C-section, there are things you can do to "heal the gut" to maximize the immune system. The gut is 70% of our immune system. You can read more about it on the "Healing the Gut" forum at Mothering.com. http://www.mothering.com/discussions/showthread.php?t=434071

Information about C-section syndrome causing infant allergies. http://www.mothering.com/discussions/showthread.php?t=941070

We soak whole grains according to the Sue Gregg blender method. It is easy, but I would avoid any grains for your son until at least one year, maybe age 2. http://www.suegregg.com/recipes/breakfasts/blenderbatterwaffles/ble... Fermenting vegetables is supposed to be magical for our health. I haven't tried it yet. You can also make kefir and kombucha, easily!

Hope I didn't overwhelm you, I am just concerned when I hear about prophlactic antibiotics on children when the research does NOT support that. I'd suggest printing out the research studies and discussing it further with your pediatric nephrologist.

Glad you are here!


Pat

[Joy Kennedy]

wow. I feel like I've hit the jackpot: mom's who know about VUR! Thank you for your responses. I'm excited about reading the links you posted, Pat. I would love to pick both of your brains (Anna and Pat)! you sound like a wealth of information. Are there any dr's in Charlotte that either of you know of that would support my decision to take him off the prophylactic antibiotics (or are there any 'green' dr's in Charlotte)? Our current pediatrician told us it was not an option to not use the antibiotics b/c he has grade V. We chose her b/c she told us that she avoids antibiotics unless absolutely necassary. I actually just stopped giving them to him 3 days ago after realizing that we had been misusing them; for 30 days instead of 14 and for 2 months we didn't refrigerate b/c a pharmacist told us it wasn't necassary (both of which compromise the antibiotics). So now I am just completely confused and feel like I am putting him at risk for another UTI. We use elimination communication so when we are at home he rarely poops in his diaper which I hope will reduce any chances of UTIs. Another reason I stopped was because he has been having myoclonic jerks when he falls asleep for his naps which basically look like little seizures and I haven't been completely satisfied with the over the phone diagnosis and am worried that the amoxicillin could be causing them, probably a long shot but I can't help but be hyper conscious of everything that involves my baby.
Thanks again! I would love any suggestions or wisdom you could share with me.
joy

[Pat]

I'd recommend seeing Dr. Dino Kanelos. He is no specialist by far. You have to be your own health care researcher and advocate. But, he is cooperative, in general, with honoring parent's consent and dissent about health care choices, ime.

He is in Ballantyne and Weddington. He is a family practice doctor. I'd consider seeing a pediatric nephrologist directly, irrelevant of the primary doctor, ped or otherwise. I've learned that nationally, they are not doing prophlaxis like they used to. It is very "old school". So, I'd suggest finding a specialist who may be more informed than your pediatrician. Grade V is serious and since your baby can not communicate any signs of UTI, the risks are greater of an undetected infection. However, boys rarely have UTI, although, uncircumcized boys have a slightly higher incidence of UTI, statistically. However, documenting monthly clear urine for C&S should give you some leeway. And a urine for C&S stat for any fevers.

I'm not sure about the myoclonic jerks, some folks consider that cause for a 24 hour EEG. You'd need to go the neurologist route for that. Additionally, that is not uncommon when falling off to sleep. Personally, I don't believe that we know enough about the neuro system to be medicating babies for minor "symtoms" or "EEG findings". Medical "science" isn't much of a "science", from what I've observed. It is trial and error; and the "error" research is on real people. And then after the fact, we learn 'Oops, we need to stop that treatment.' Limited research is done on people's babies, you know. Who wants their baby to have experimental treatments. So, they do what is called "post marketing research" and after enough folks have problems with a treatment, they stop doing it. Seriously, that is how our "medical science" works.

I think that Kanelos will be as aggressive or relaxed as you desire. He'll discuss pros/cons and fall on the interventionist side, imo. But, ultimately, he'll honor your right as parent to decide.

Most antibiotics don't have to be refrigerated, however liquids usually do. What probiotics are you using? And what food sources of probiotics are *you* consuming?

Definitely, the EC will decrease UTI risk!


Pat

[Joy Kennedy]

Right now we see Dr. Talley as our pediatrician and Dr. Levy as our Pediatric Urologist, Dr. Levy was recommended by a Pediatric Urologist from the Mayo Clinic. I am going to call Dr. Dino Kanelos tomorrow to set up an appointment, I do think I would like to switch pediatricians. Thank you for the recommendation. I don't think I'm willing to have any medical intervention for the myoclonic jerks. He is on Liquid Amoxicillin. (one of the contraindications of amoxicillin is seizures which is why I was worried but like I said I am not yet willing to intervene medically for the jerks.) We had him circumcized after after his UTI.

I give Henry Dr. Udo's probiotics and I take the earthfare brand. I eat steel cut oats, granola, brown rice, pinto beans, split peas, lentils, kidney beans, garbonzo beans, mustard greens, dandelion greens, romaine lettuce, olive oil, lots and lots of coconut oil, raw unfiltered apple cider vinegar, cilantro, kale, onions, all squashes, sweet pototoes and potatoes, bell peppers, and I juice carrots with garlic and celery daily and I eat 3 pieces of fruit for breakfast, that's almost everything! and I occasionally buy a vegan blondie from earthfare! I drink kombuca but would like to make my own so I can have it more often. and I drink one cup of coffee at noon.

[Pat]

I believe that you should be able to make a "get acquainted" visit with Dr. Kanelos. It might even be free. You can get a feel for his demeanor.

You don't even have to "switch" providers. Just consider adding a primary care doctor for general health and see the pediatrician if you need to sometime.

Vegan, hmmm...convenient probiotics are a bit tough without some type of dairy. There is water kefir and kombucha. But, I don't believe that either has Lactobacillus. I'd recommend those, for both of you. And Active Live Culture yogurt would be something to consider adding. Lactobacillis is the primary probiotics in the studies regarding preventing VUR complications, in lieu of antibiotics. Yogurt can be given to the baby directly. I'd suggest raw, goat's milk homemade yogurt (least allergenic and RAW has beneficial enzymes). Although, there is debate about heating the milk before fermenting it. You'll need to research that a bit to decide.

Basically, powdered probiotics lose efficacy quickly when exposed to air or heat. So, most commercial probiotics are denatured and less effective, non-viable, or don't make it through the gut. You consuming probiotics will help baby; I'm assuming you are nursing. Please do, as long as possible because your immunities will significantly help baby's immune system, for life. Let me know if you need more info about probiotic choices.

Any chance you'd consider cod liver oil? From the looks of it, you probably need more essential fatty acids, Omegas, flax isn't optimal, but an alternative, borage oil, evening primrose oil. But, seriously less optimal due to the body having to convert them to make the essential fatty acids.

Are you juicing? You can increase nutrients, efficiently that way. And it is easy to add fats to smoothies. Definitely start soaking your oatmeal! It is almost worthless nutritionally unless soaked at least 24 hours in an acid medium. Magnesium supplementation is the other, often depleted nutrient in our foods and diet. Consider Natural Calm. It is the most bio-available, from my understanding. Soaking rice is simple and beneficial. Use an acid medium, raw apple cider vinegar, sit on counter for 12 hours, then cook normally.

Without a whole food dairy source of probiotics, I wouldn't be comfortable discontinuing the antibiotics with a Grade V VUR. Of course, those studies are in-exact. But, you'll need to decide upon your priorities regarding vegan consistency. One of the beautiful opportunities of parenting, is self-examination of our priorities. Parenting choices are an enlightening source of self-discovery, in my experience.

Btw, do you have any mercury dental fillings? And definitely see a homeopath. Dr. Michael Smith is an ND and practices homeopathy. But, he sent a friend home with bottled probiotics, which I fundamentally disagree with. As an fyi, the bottle probiotics are developed on a dairy base.

Another beneficial alternative is sprouting nuts, seeds and grains. I haven't done it; but it is supposed to be fairly easy, with a bit of attention a few times a day. The "rejuvenac" from the seed sprouting is fermented liquid and considered "liquid gold". I just don't know that much about it. I have some resources, if you want more info.

Soaking nuts is easy and I don't see nuts on your list. With baby so young, I'm hesitant, until age 1 for you to consume. Also, any change of eggs? Am I freaking you out? I mean no disrespect. Just from what I've heard from the vegan mamas with babies with immunity concerns, they've embraced lacto-ov0 diets with significant benefits. There are a lot of Vit A & Vit D concerns on a dairy free, CLO-free diet. What about butter?

Another resource for B vitamins is seaweeds. I'm clueless in this area. I have a variety which I add to soups. I won't mention the primacy of bone stocks to nutrients and immune system, because I know I'm over the line. There is a Veg*n forum at MDC. Are you familiar with it?

Another helpful resource is "World'

[Pat]

[I talked too much and the site cut me off, lol. Third time that has happened! ]

Check out "World's Healthiest Foods". It lists the most nutrient dense foods and has a lists of foods, by nutrient and mineral analysis. http://www.whfoods.com/foodstoc.php The site also has a 'nutrient' quiz, where it will evaluate your diet and indicate the potential deficiency areas. It is probably based upon the Food Pyramid, so take that with a grain of salt. Sea salt, of course. ;-)

Here is their "food advisor": http://whfoods.org/foodadvisor.php ( I wouldn't change my life based upon this "quiz"; but it is a helpful tool.)

Best wishes, Pat

[Joette]

My head is spinning! LOL There is so much info in this thread already I don't know where to begin. I think I need to process this for a while! I hope I will be able to form a coherent question soon!

This is an important topic for me. My sister had kidney reflux as a child and now her daughter has it. Her daughter is on the antibiotics and I am hoping I can pass along some info to her to question the antibiotics.

Thanks.
Joette

[Anna]

Pat has shared A LOT of information!!! I won't begin to add to that but can say what helped me when making the decision.

I tried to look at the doctor's needs and my child's need. The doctors had a need of addressing any infection quickly. This was/is especially critical in my child because she only has one kidney. My child needed a healthy gut and immune system because she had been through the ringer after birth (2 months in the NICU). The research I read, even way back then, stated that the prophylactic antibiotics tended to create antibiotic resistant UTIs, so often times (and the numbers were significant) children eventually had to be hospitalized for IV antibiotics because the standard course didn't work. So that just struck me as odd, we were rendering the drug that *could* be helpful, useless for a "maybe" infection.

So with the urine screen, and I would have done it weekly if necessary, the doctors could rest assured that dd didn't have any traces of infection and I could keep her body functioning at it's best, without compromising it with years of antibiotics. We already had "gut" issues because she had been on 3 different antibiotics, including the 'big gun' vancomycin for 3 weeks just after birth.

We didn't EC, didn't know about it then, but it was really easy to "catch" the first morning pee. So that route just felt more comfortable to me. When I was in the hospital with my dd for so long I learned A LOT. One of the big lessons was doctors (especially specialists) don't always think of the "whole". My daughter lost one her kidneys because of an umbilical arterial line they put in her to make giving meds easier. It is a common "side effect" to loose a kidney but that wasn't talked about until afterward. The heart doctor would prescribed a course of drugs and interventions that were contraindicated for other conditions. So I learned that it was up to *me* to be the expert on my child and to take control of her health, looking at long term risks *and* the now.

In the nephrologist case, he liked the convenience of prophylactic antibiotics and he told me that he could not trust his patients/parents to follow through with urine checks so this was "safer". He understood the potential long term issues but said 'we'd cross that bridge'. Well, I didn't want to cross that bridge - LOL! And I was fine with the extra "work". Once he started to trust I would follow through, it all went really well.

So I guess I'm saying it helps to peel back the layers to see what's really going on. It might not be that antibiotics is the only or even best course but that there are other issues around why they are choosing it and those issues can be addressed in ways that work for both parties.

Hopefully, I didn't add to the confusion!!! I know it's a serious and challenging subject!!

~Anna

[Joy Kennedy]

I'm not freaked out at all! I'm not squeamish about meat or dairy, in fact I became a 'vegan' very organically. I eliminated dairy after I had Henry b/c it makes me very mucousy and then gradually eliminated meat as well, mainly b/c it makes me feel sluggish and I could tell that my body was having a hard time digesting it (I never really ate meat before I was pregnant but wanted to consume more calories and protein so I started once I became pregnant). I occasionally ate meat during my pregnancy when I felt like I/we needed it and made chicken stock for soup from the bones. So I am by no means religious about it, I just try to listen to my body and do what is best according to how I feel and try to base it on information I have read.
I checked on the probiotics and sure enough they are dairy based! And I went to Earthfare today and bought goat milk kefir! I am very open to new information and LOVE learning about, well, everything! The goat milk kefir is very good and am I interested in buying it raw and making it myself (I don't like that it comes in plastic--I worry about BPA's). I have to say that this week I have gotten a bad cold and cough so it makes me think I should adjust some things since I haven't been sick in almost 2 years! and of course Henry has a milder cold but a cold just the same. I am very interested in using probiotics in leiu of antibiotics and would love to get as much information as possible. I am excited about checking out the link you gave me about whole food probiotics and fermenting. I really appreciate all the information you have shared! I have read about the controversy between plant based omega 3's and fish omega's. I've been curious about Krill Oil--I found a brand that claims to be PCB and heavy metal free, it is Twin Labs. Do you have any opinion on Krill versus Cod oil? I have wondered if I consume more omega's if that might help Henry's myoclonic jerks (which happen once or twice a week and only when he has just fallen asleep or is about to). I have to admit that I would drink blood (gross!) if I new it would help him in any way-- so any advice or information or links you can send me to is greatly appreciated. Thanks again for your time and information! oh, also, I do have a few mercury fillings that I know I need to have removed but I worry about doing it while I'm breastfeeding--and I need a dentist, any suggestions?
Thanks again,
joy

[Joy Kennedy]

Thanks you for this information. Can I barrow some of your strength? wow.
How did you do the Urine Checks? Is it something I can do? I didn't know it was an option. I thought about doing pharmacy bought UTI tests but they say that antibiotics can 'confuse' the test. I agree with you that Dr's do not look at the 'whole' and I believe that I am Henry's best advocate. We are seeing a Urologist (Dr. Levy) does that differ very much from a Nephrologist and is there one in Charlotte you recommend? thanks again,
joy

[Joette]

You are not supposed to have mercury fillings removed when you are pregnant or breastfeeding. My husband is going through this right now and he is on probiotics and some vitamins leading up to the removal to help his body with the process. He is thinking of chelating when he is done to remove any metals that do get in his body. I know of a holistic dentist in Mooresville. Dr. W. Carl McMillan DMD of Holistic Dental Centers. 919-454-3732

Good luck.
Joette